When I was in high school in the late 80's the gaming industry seemed to be in great shape, there was SPI, GDW, AH and others. I went to college and found beer and girls, and then the working world and just didn't keep playing. In the past couple of years I've been trying to get back into it and I see that much has changed.

So what happened - was it the end of the Cold War, was it computers? (Iv'e never understood some of the antipathy to computers and computer gaming, seems very complimentary to me)

Anyways since I really didn't see it happen, I'm just curious...

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Stephen Johnson wrote it best in his book Everything Bad Is Good for You: How Today's Popular Culture Is Actually Making Us Smarter . He basically says kids have never really minded complicated pastimes as long as they're fun. He talked about Statis-Pro baseball; I think he talked about inventing his own version. I think every ASL player I've talked to has a story about "inventing" some wargame rules of their own. Mine was a campaign layer for Secret Weapons of the Luftwaffe - it used the mission builder that LucasArts designed, but was a dice-driven set of charts of my own making researched from actual 8th Air Force data gleaned from Roger Freeman's books and some Avalon Hill games. Each mission had to be created by hand but it was a way to campaign a single Bomb Group through the air war in Europe, something you couldn't do with SWOTL (the in-game campaign was a theatre-wide affair).

Point being that kids WILL play complicated games, and even make them up on their own.

Having said that, though, that was at a time when we were kind of left to our own devices. I dunno. A complicated set of wargame rules, dumbed down with "cards and toys" seems more like pandering to the latest trends but I'm obviously not the target market of such a thing. Your guess is as good as mine. I'm still waiting to see a decent computer game that does everything ASL does - where an infantry squad can scale a cliff, break off men to scout, set demo on a bridge, drop by parachute, set fire to a house, ride on a tank, escort prisoners, march in different formations, etc., etc., etc. Steel Panthers, Close Combat, Combat Mission, Panzer Command et al have yet to achieve that kind of granularity. And unlike paper games, me, or you or Stephen Johnson can't just sit down and create our own.
"Well said, heartly agree.
Love the pics with the kids, What rules were you using"

Why, mine of course! The Games of War: A Treasury of Rules for Battles with Toy Soldiers, Ships, and Planes. There are 39 sets of miniatures rules in one book. There are plenty of comments about it and example of play on Boardgamegeek.com.
For me personally, the industry is better than it's ever been WRT to quality of games, availability of opponents (either Face To Face (FTF) or online via VASSAL or other interfaces). I subscribe to more game-related magazines than I've ever done before, I like the content and quality more than I used to, and there's such a range of treatments/topics and a high number of quality efforts. Got more games than I can ever really play. And I've got two outstanding wargamer clubs within easy driving range of my house. Don't know if I'm in the majority or minority view, but it's my view and admittedly mine alone.
Grumpies??? How absurd, so anybody that doesnt shut up and like it is some old guy that complains for fun? Thats beyond silly asbol;utley untrue and smacks of the usuall BGG attituded.

Nah, wargamers tend to complain, the game companies do listen so no harm in it.

Sorry if complainng about young people to young people sounds like Mr Wilson but reapeting the word grumpy 5 times wont negatge the opinion, which is in now way exclusively mine.

Grogs, grumps, old timers, terms of endearment really, mostly used to describe themselves.

Perhaps some FTF conversation would yield more prodcutive results. Forums online are rife with the people that "say" things under the mask of anionymity and geographical distance they would never say in person. Funny thing is that sometimes even real tiem chat instills a bit more caution in peoples desire to just prod for fun instead of answering civily.

You can say that again, messageboard posts are not good at relating emotion or tone, much get's lost in translation.
If you want you can email me. Your email is kwittmann@wi.rr.com correct?

There reall is nothing to indicate in any CSW medium that are not people that are longing for certian products, are absoluley devoid of criticism of current ones. Genuflecting with Fan Boy fervor to a game company is not a productive way to make any game or company better.

I see what you're saying, I think people like to praise companies they are fond of.

Certinaly if we tried to shut down criticism of companies in general the products would only get words. We crtiicse goverment in order to make it better as well. These ideas are far from negative they are helpful. I think there is plenty of opurtunites to cut and pate in quotes in those game folders that proove easily that critism exists and to the betterment of the game or company.

That's why CSW, CSW Social, and to a lesser extant BGG are great. The game companies present there read and respond to critics that make valid, coherent and respectful arguments.

Your straight out BGG attempts to try to paint this as uinreasonbble is just that unreasonable. If you want to guys and kiss ass that site is your place.

There is probably more "ass kissing" on BGG, I think the membership their is more casual and less hard core about their games as opposed to the Grogs on CSW.

I think objectivity, civility and honest anyalsis has been the norm, with few exceptions at CSW, from what I have seen. This thread is one of the glaring exmaples of the exception.

This thread did go off in a hundred different directions.

to that mainly due to the kind reply you made here

You mean the reply you just replied to?
I was attempting to get the thread back on track.
I guess a more direct answer to your question would be, No.
A longer answer would be I wish there was at least one new game about modern stuff, M1 tanks, OIF, something I have experience with.
I am looking forward to the re-relase of MBT/IDF.
Say what?
We need an Ignore User function, and our friend needs a spell checker.
There's been some good discussions here - but since my discussions seem to go off of the rail at some point - I gotta close it... I appreciate everyone's thoughts...


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